Wednesday, January 23, 2013

Overhead work in 365 and in general

I've gotten overrun with questions about overhead work in 365, and a TON of questions about improving overhead strength in general lately.


  • In 365 for phase 1, just sub out incline press for overhead work.  I personally think that incline gives you the best of both worlds, however some people just have cialis hard erections for overhead work, so there is your key.  I shake my head when people write that they don't understand my loving of incline press.  If you suck at incline press, you probably suck at either bench OR overheads.  But if you're awesome at incline you are probably awesome at both.  Again, I said probably.  I'm sure that quote will get taken to the woodshed by the keyboard warriors but incline is that dark world between benches and overheads.  It tends to cater to both just a little bit.  
  • In phase 1, do NOT program it.  Just get in the work listed for incline.  5 sets of 10 reps at a weight you can get all 10 reps with, or to a top set of 10.  You can mix it up too.  Remember the assistance drops off with each phase so figure it out early.  Or not.  
  • I am always mystified by guys whose bench goes up from increasing their overhead press.  Have you just NOT done fucking overhead work at all?  If so, that's the answer.  Not that overhead work itself is the key.  It's just that you made the mistake of neglecting a basic movement for too long.  
  • I don't think there is anything magical about standing presses compared to seated presses in terms of shoulder development or strength.  In fact, I feel my shoulders working far more when I do seated press behind the neck than any other movement.  Same with seated db presses.  And I can do a clean and press with 275+ any day of the week, even if I haven't been doing them.  Just get strong at overhead pressing in every fashion you can and you'll be fine.  
  • The Klokov press, while fun, destroys my mid back more than my shoulders.  I personally don't recommend it for most because it really beats you up and (which can be done with a standard PBN) it has little to other to other movements I think.  Again, it's fun but I don't see the application of it to other movements since other movements that don't beat you up as much, offer the same benefits.  
  • The glutes should initiate the initial push in the standing press.  So many guys miss this.  It's like leg drive in the bench.  Drive with the glutes and arch the low back hard.  
  • At the start of the movement, should be squeezing your biceps.  Not letting the bar "rest" on your triceps.  So "flex" your forearms in hard at the bottom.  This will take some tinkering but I made a video about it and the guys who have applied it were amazed at the difference it made.  It's on my youtube channel.    
  • Another way to think about this, is that at the bottom you should be trying to make your palms face each other instead of just holding the weight in front of you.  
  • Best assistance for the overhead press?  More overhead presses.  
  • Though I will say band pull aparts might seem to help since most guys are weak as shit in the rear delts and rhomboids since they do shit rows.  So if your "shelf" is weak, the start will feel weak because the support musculature isn't strong enough to support to load as easy.  So lots of upperback work can help (this seems to be a theme with pretty much every big lift doesn't it?).
  • I've read a million times to "drive the head through" on standing press, but I actually feel a loss of power and drive when I do that.  I've tried it a million times, and it never fails.  This is one of those times where the coaching doesn't always apply to everyone.  So try it both ways and see which one feels stronger to you.  

23 comments:

  1. I think that the 'drive the head through' is more a cue on form than anything else. When I'm helping people with their press, I use the drive the head through phrase when the bar is out in front, instead of directly overhead.

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  2. Paul I haven't read starting strength in awhile but I seem to recall him saying something along the lines of the head through cue and then "pushing the traps up" at the top of the movement puts your shoulders in a healthier and safer position. Does this make any sense? I never really understood it, yet nevertheless still try to drive my head through and push the bar up at the top of every rep. Thoughts?

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    1. I do not try to drive my head through at all. I don't care what that cue is or anything about it. I just press overhead and worry about that. I think sometimes people overthink some lifts, and this is over of them. You're just pressing shit over your head.

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  3. "to press a lot you must press a lot"

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  4. I prefer to press straight up and let my head just follow a natural path versus trying to push through. I also never do behind the neck presses any more as my shoulder joints don't like it.

    I do three kinds standing presses: overheads, dumbbell presses standing, and seated shoulder presses to the front.

    This has added decent overhead pressing power increases the last year.

    I keep a ratio of 2 pulls to every push, so get in plenty of all types of rows and pull ups for the rears, etc.

    Good Read, by the way.

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  5. re: Driving the head through. I've found that concentrating on trying to do that is useless, because it happens automatically if I just try to push the bar further up. That is, the "shrug" some people describe at the end of the OHP is the way my body has of pushing the bar as high as possible, so I just focus on that rather than on actively shrugging. Dunno if it'll be the same for others, but FWIW it worked for me. *shrug*

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  6. I suck at overhead press, always have. I switched to standing BTN presses after I tried them as an assistance exercise. As long as I'm doing these things for reps my shoulders are actually happier for some strange reason.

    My guess is the bar alignment is just better top to bottom. I'll stick with these until I save up for an incline bench.

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    1. I have had the same experience, re: BTN presses.

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  7. In all fairness though Paul, and you've admitted this yourself, but you're a natural at pressing. Using the argument that you can standing 275 for reps is pretty much moot because you could probably pull that off if you did overhead work once every month.

    As for Klokovs, I think they have merits that PBN doesn't have (and Jamie feels this way as well) but they are definitely a mid back movement as much as a shoulder movement, I agree completely.

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    1. Yes I could, however a lot of things that come naturally to me for overhead work I've been able to teach.

      I don't think Klokov's have a whole lot of benefit to powerlifters because the movement just doesn't transfer to anything else that I can't think, that another movement couldn't do, without beating you the fuck up. Jamie's opinion on that is really here nor there. Klokov is a pressing movement, and his bench hasn't moved in ages. So I don't see where the carryover is.

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    2. Hey not disagreeing there, your "load the bicep" thing was very helpful.

      As for benefit to powerlifters, that's very possible. I was referring more to merit to shit like snatches and BTN push presses, which is obviously Oly lifting and not powerlifting. I think you'll get more out of presses from the front if you want to have carryover to your bench seeing as you're utilizing roughly the same muscle groups along with more delts.

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    3. Definitely for Oly guys. which is why I made sure to point out "powerlifting" when I wrote that. It's a fun movement until your whole body hurts from it.

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  8. Overhead Pressing is a whole different ball game for me. I had to really experiement with overhead work to see what would benefit me the most. BTNs and Front Military Presses for reps were out, Dumbbell presses were toleratable now and then. Even so, it would fk my shoulders up. Neutral grip pressing always worked better. But no matter what, it always seemed to go back to the same three movements i could do comfortably. The snatch, a heavy push-press for singles n doubles, and overhead lockouts for time.
    Upright Rows, a new favorite along with plate raises, are the only two movements I can do for reps pain free.

    I work at the steel mill, and throughout the day we are called upon to snatch or "curl n press or push-presss" some sort of steel material overhead then we would carry them that way, if we can. My shoulders always felt tremendously pumped and tight as hell after those carries. So, i started doing the same shit in my garage without walking around. I would snatch or push-press a heavy dumbbell or barbell and do overhead lockouts for time. The same shit I would do in my job. I have never once pressed something for reps at my job, so I didn't do it in my garage. Sure, I would do sets, but none of that pressing for reps stuff. Anyways, I made it a personal goal to focus on beating Time PRs with a certain weight. Basically what I'm saying is that I do overhead lockouts for time as my main staple for shoulder work and its been nothing short of a badassed assistance work. Shoulders have gotten bigger and they feel bulletproof compared to before. I just recently OHlocked out a 1arm 50lb dumbbell for 5 minutes straight without putting it down, then a 100lber for 2 mins. Now that was a killer.

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  9. I can't speak for everyone, but I think the biggest reason I never really overhead pressed until a few years ago had to do with following Buddy Morris on Elitefts. Don't get me wrong he's a smart, jacked dude who knows his shit. But for years he preached about how bad overhead pressing was for your shoulders. Finally realized that my shoulders actually feel better when I overhead press. Imagine that!!!!

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  10. Is this what you mean about not liking the pushing head through:

    On fairly easy weights, pushing head through feels easy and very natural. When weights get heavy and I start think about pushing my head through while pressing, it feels like I am pulling the bar back. That's when I know I am fucked. I complete the rep but it doesn't feel right and I know I have gotten out of whack.

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  11. MrDMaynard, sounds good.
    Dan John talked about Oly support move where he called lockouts where on the last rep of your overhead lift (snatch or jerk grip) do reps of just releasing the lockout a little then re-locking it. I tried and like this. If done at end of every set adds up.

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  12. I had no idea you guys were going to get so carried away about the "head through" thing.

    I don't do it. If you like it, do it. I find it takes away from my pressing. Everyone is different.

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  13. I really think the head through thing is just one of those cues like 'sitting back' in the squat that everyone just says you should do without really saying why. But you're right its not really important.

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  14. Once the weight gets heavy enough from either repping it or going for a max attempt you will not give two fucks about "putting your head through". You will be content to just get the motherfucker up, lockout, lower it and fucking get out from underneath it and sit down. At least that is my version lol.

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  16. Mr.Carter

    Can it hurt to do no standing presses for a long time, just like your 3 day old school template in SLL..?

    Bench Press-Incline Press and Dips.

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